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legal?
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=42089		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  itswednesday14 [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  legal?
Is it legal to ship a mahogany/spruce guitar with an ebony fingerboard and Brazilian Rosewood bridge from one country to another? Not whether it should be or not, just is it legal.
Author:  jackwilliams [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
.
Author:  uvh sam [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
Short answer is no. There is no "ad minimum" for cites species meaning technically any amount of listed species in an export must have corresponding export licenses and paperwork otherwise it may be subject to seizure and large fines.
Would "they" really know if you did try to slide through?
Well you just have to ask yourself one question, do you feel lucky? Well do ya, punk!
Author:  John Mayes [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
chances are greatly in your favor that nothing will get caught. Don't declare the bridge Brazilian. Don't declare it anything. I would have zero hesitation on shipping it.... take that for whatever it's worth. .... Which isn't much
Author:  nyazzip [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
Barely.
Author:  Herr Dalbergia [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
without proper cites papers accourding to the used species, no. Will they find out? I do not know about US or Canada, here in Europe for sure they will kick your ass...

cheers, alex
Author:  Michael.N. [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
It's illegal to ship without the paperwork. I don't know why any guitar maker would take the risk, let alone flout the convention. Both stupid and irresponsible IMO.
Author:  bluescreek [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
If you want to be legal you at least need a PPQ505 form. If you get caught the fines can be a big issue. Odds are in your favor that you won't get caught but dealing with other countries , is a pain. Europe is very tight and often pull things to check.
You can get legal paperwork and that will be about $350.00 but makes things easier and you can avoid the pains of fines and legal issues.
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
Discussing the merits of breaking a law in an open forum isn't something that I would consider wise.

Alex
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
Todd Stock wrote:
If you are going to export, think about this from the point of view of your customer - the last thing they want to hear from you is how you THINK you can fake out Big Brother and PROBABLY keep their property from being seized.


That's the salient issue...imo.

In the propeller business I was CONSTANTLY asked to understate the value of a shipment to reduce VAT. I'd be more than happy to chisel back at an indifferent, chiseling government but to be seen as one who would take risks in business would reflect very poorly back on me....so I never did it.
Author:  itswednesday14 [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
Say whatever you would like but the question was is it legal. It seems from a few of the comments that it isnt. Thank you
Author:  Rodger Knox [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
According to the letter of the law, it's not legal to ship BRW across state lines...
Author:  bluescreek [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
it is legal if you have the proper paperwork. To attain this you have to apply for the proper licensing you need a PPQ505 for all flora fauna . Most countries in Europe will not allow shell product in. Yes you can send Brazilian across state lines , this was discussed at the ASIA Symposium in East Stroudsburg in June.
If the wood is not legal , it is possible to get it legalized , but that will cost about $350 and applications can take a year to clear.
Author:  emoney [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
From what I've read in CITES, you would be better served to pose this question to your local authorities. I would keep in mind, however, that
there's no transaction "final" until customer/purchaser receives his/her goods, so if you're thinking about flying under the radar, so-to-speak, it won't be the end user out the money/guitar, it will be you.
Author:  bluescreek [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
I do this for a living , and few on the posters have dealt with the powers that be on this subject. yes you can fly under the radar and it isn't like the LACEY and CITIES police are under every rock. The question was posed was it legal and you can get paperwork to make your wood legitimate but it takes time , money and knowing were to go to find answers.
CITIES is international and some countries are very strict , LACEY is US only but may pertain to material that is out of the country. I agree that it is a tainted law . a PPQ505 can be downloaded off the internet for the covered material. CITIES is different but it is possible to get old stock legalized.
The key is due diligence . The average person would have more leeway in the regulations than one that is in the business. So yes you may be able to make this legal but it is a lot of work.
If you buy from unknown sources be sure to ask for the paperwork. If they don't provide that , be sure you have the documentation of where it came from , Invoice, Cartons return address and tracking number. this show a chain of supply .Know your sources.

No problem Todd.
Author:  Glen H [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
Filippo Morelli wrote:
True. I believe I just broke the speed limit in town. I probably also broke a couple other laws while I was breathing… at least in the United States, I would be surprised if technically speaking someone doesn't break the law at least once a day on average. I'm not kidding.
Filippo



So true.... I am a Texan and have been told that the much-amended Texas constitution has an amendment that makes carrying a pair of wire-cutters in your back pocket while crossing someone else's pasture a criminal offense.... LOL. Back to the old cattle rustlings days (but it still goes on from what I hear).
Author:  Rodger Knox [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
Glen H wrote:
Filippo Morelli wrote:
True. I believe I just broke the speed limit in town. I probably also broke a couple other laws while I was breathing… at least in the United States, I would be surprised if technically speaking someone doesn't break the law at least once a day on average. I'm not kidding.
Filippo



So true.... I am a Texan and have been told that the much-amended Texas constitution has an amendment that makes carrying a pair of wire-cutters in your back pocket while crossing someone else's pasture a criminal offense.... LOL. Back to the old cattle rustlings days (but it still goes on from what I hear).


Filippo, were you transporting wood when you broke the speed limit? That's a Lacey violation!

The wire cutters goes back to the "free range" days, and cutting a barbed wire fence was(and may still be) a felony.
Author:  MikeyV [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
I break a law about every hour...it's a friggin joke.

Anyway, What I'd do is remove the bridge, then ship the guitar. Send the bridge separately. That way, if it gets caught, it's only a bridge.

Or replace the bridge with ANYTHING but brazilian. Madagascar perhaps?
Author:  Rodger Knox [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
We definitely need stronger laws. The ones we have are so easy to break.... beehive
laughing6-hehe bliss
Author:  bluescreek [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
If there is pearl in it that can also get it confiscated .
Author:  itswednesday14 [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
So what would be a good replacement bridge species? I have read that Tucurensis and Stevensii are considered by some to be the most similar.
Author:  bftobin [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
I think I heard Grumpy say Amazon Rosewood is a very close relative and substitute. I picked up some a while ago and haven't tried it yet, but it rings like my Brz bridge blanks.

Brent
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
As far as customer risk goes, that's a very good question. It's possible that for a single guitar, doing the paperwork invites more scrutiny and actually increases the chances of delays, fines, and impoundment. As for protecting yourself, it's my understanding that a good faith attempt at the paperwork will protect the shipper from the biggest fines. The last seminar I went to on the subject made it appear that problems are rare but there is no sure way to prevent them.
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
The two biggest problems with Lacey, in my opinion, are the difficulty of determining what's 'legal', and the fact that confiscation is not considered a 'punishment'. If we were not is such a high-value-added business the loss of a set of wood now and then might not be so painful, but in most cases the the labor so far exceeds the material cost that it becomes a real burden. Due diligence won't help with that: illegal wood is like stolen property: it was never 'yours' in the first place. Proper diligence should, of course, help you to avoid buying illegal materials, but there will always be cases where you've missed something, or been unable to track it down as well as you 'should' have, or simply interpret the law differently from the F&W Service. I think when this really gets going it will end up in a lot of 'self censorship', if you will: people passing up good and legal materials simply for lack of proof.
Author:  itswednesday14 [ Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: legal?
I am enjoying the responses but originally I asked for no shoulds. As it has come up I will say that I think we should be able to use the wood that is cut. No doubt there are other opinions but if I run on a stash of Braz from a builder that has died I cant prove where it came from. Even if he was alive he probably wouldnt know. What are we to do with this quality wood, burn it? I am in favor of not cutting more trees but there is too much unneeded legislation in this world.
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